{"id":272216,"date":"2020-12-21T00:00:00","date_gmt":"2023-09-19T16:09:39","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blog.jusmundi.com\/?p=272216"},"modified":"2023-09-20T12:18:22","modified_gmt":"2023-09-20T10:18:22","slug":"interview-with-mobilising-for-rights-associates-mra-a-moroccan-ngo-defending-womens-rights","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/2020\/12\/21\/interview-with-mobilising-for-rights-associates-mra-a-moroccan-ngo-defending-womens-rights\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview with Mobilising for Rights Associates (MRA), a Moroccan NGO defending women&#8217;s rights"},"content":{"rendered":"<div>\n<p><strong>Happy holidays and best wishes for 2021!<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The team at Jus Mundi wishes you peace, joy, and prosperity throughout the coming year. <strong>To all our clients,<\/strong> thank you for your continued support. We couldn\u2019t have had such a successful year without you.<\/p>\n<p>2020 was a difficult year. So, instead of sending gifts to our clients, we <strong>donated 2,000 euros\u00a0on behalf of our clients<\/strong>\u00a0to an NGO. We held a vote with the entire team of Jus Mundi &amp;\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/mrawomen.ma\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Mobilising for Rights Associates (MRA)<\/a>, a Moroccan NGO\u00a0defending women&#8217;s rights, which received the highest votes!<\/p>\n<p>This donation will be used to further develop <strong>Marsadnissa<\/strong>. An <strong>observatory<\/strong> hosted on a website with <strong>an electronic database<\/strong> to collect and publish different court decisions affecting women&#8217;s human rights from all over Morocco.<\/p>\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to <strong>donate to MRA<\/strong> or <strong>volunteer<\/strong> for their initiatives, contact them directly using this <a href=\"https:\/\/mrawomen.ma\/contact-us\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">link<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>We did the interview in English &amp; French. The interview video below has English subtitles. For video with French subtitles, click <a href=\"youtube.com\/watch?v=uRWcw9Ii7xQ&amp;feature=youtu.be\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">here<\/a>. Transcript of the video in English &amp; French is also available below.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div class=\"jeg_video_container jeg_video_content\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Jus Mundi interviews Mobilising for Right Associates (MRA), a Moroccan NGO defending women&#039;s rights\" width=\"500\" height=\"281\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/JZXUM3IsQM4?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Transcript for the interview below in English &amp; French.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Transcript in English:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Hi everyone, my name is Jean-R\u00e9mi de Maistre (CEO of Jus Mundi), and on behalf of the whole Jus Mundi team, I want to wish everyone happy holidays. We all hope that 2021 will be better than 2020, not to be very difficult, I believe and that we can go back to our normal lives or at least something that will look like our normal lives.<\/p>\n<p>The past year, and because it was our first past year, Jus Mundi offered a little gift to all its clients. But this year, we decided to do it a bit differently, and we decided to make in the name of our clients, a donation to an NGO. And this NGO is <a href=\"https:\/\/mrawomen.ma\/\">Mobilising for Right Associates<\/a> or MRA or I can pronounce it as well &#8220;Im-Ruh-AA&#8221;, which means &#8220;woman&#8221; in Arabic, and sorry for my accent.<\/p>\n<p><strong>MRA is an international non-profit organization based in Rabat in Morocco but working whole across the Maghreb.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We decided to interview <strong>Stephanie Willman Bordat<\/strong> and <strong>Saida Kouzzi<\/strong>, who are the two <strong>co-founders <\/strong>of MRA to learn more about their missions, why they built the organization, and to spread the word about it, because we believe that what they are doing is really incredible and we hope that more people can hear about their work.<\/p>\n<p>But before that, let me do a little introduction to explain how I know MRA and why we chose this organization for the donation and also how we chose it internally.<\/p>\n<p>To put it simply, it&#8217;s very likely that Jus Mundi would not exist today without MRA.<\/p>\n<p>I met with Stephanie in 2012, I believe, the first time, when I was a young student in international law. As most of my fellow students, I was, at this time, at the same time amazed by international law promises, you know, to promote peace, human rights and to defend our common values like the environment or everything which is important to most lawyers worldwide and people generally, and at the same time deeply disappointed by the fact that it doesn&#8217;t work so well in a lot of cases. We have plenty of treaties, committees, courts, arbitral tribunals, of law, etc. And all of that is very important and has improved the situation for sure.<\/p>\n<p>But the gap between the theoretical law and rights that have been proclaimed for like 70 years ago or so, the gap between these rights and the concrete situation on the ground is still very huge. And we all know that. And it gives us a bit the feeling that, what&#8217;s the point if it doesn&#8217;t work. So maybe let&#8217;s stop international law and let&#8217;s go back to nationalism.<\/p>\n<p>So, the big question that I had this time was, is there anything that can be done to improve how the global legal system is working today. That&#8217;s when I first met Stephanie and discovered the work, she and Saida are doing at MRA.<\/p>\n<p>I don&#8217;t want to tell instead of you what MRA is doing, and I will let you explain what you do, but I just want to explain a little part of your activity, which is about training and helping lawyers to use the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against women before the local courts.<\/p>\n<p>And as part of the capacity building that you provide to them, you built a guide to know how to use the convention and how to plead it before a judge.<\/p>\n<p>And with a group of students, I guess, in 2015, we translated this guide from English to French. And at the first part, the first page of this guide, there is a quote from Shanthi Dairiam, she&#8217;s a founder of an NGO which is dedicated to the implementation of the convention in Asia-Pacific.<\/p>\n<p>And I will read this quote, because it has been very, I believe it is very good and it was very important to me.<\/p>\n<p>She said, \u201cthere is much that can be done\u201d. \u201cWhen I am asked, what can the convention really do for women, I reply softly, what do you plan to do with the convention?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And this has really been a wake-up call for me. I believe that, you know, improving the rule of law is not so much about creating more international law. Of course, there are new areas where we need new treaties. But the big issue is more about<\/p>\n<p>implementation and enforcement of the norms. And all over the world, there is the same group of people in each country who is already in charge of this implementation and enforcement of the law.<\/p>\n<p>These are the local judges and the local lawyers. These are the people who make it work well. And this was really the founding idea of Jus Mundi, using technology to empower the legal community worldwide to strengthen the international rule of law by providing them with an easy access, and I think that is very important to all international law, including its application by the judges worldwide and the court worldwide. So, of course, this is huge and very complicated, and I guess we are maybe at one percent of what we want to do with Jus Mundi.<\/p>\n<p>And we have not touched upon human rights yet because we quickly understood that we had to proceed domain of law after domain of law, and we have first chosen fields that<\/p>\n<p>were easy and fair to start as a company. But Jus Mundi will continue to grow and to expand, and yesterday we did investment arbitration, tomorrow it will be human rights, environment, social rights also, and we are very interested in all of that.<\/p>\n<p>So, as you understand has been a real source of inspiration for us, but also of support,<\/p>\n<p>because during the first months, years while building the project, it was very complicated. And Stephania and Saida provided us with a lot of support and also psychologically, you know, to say now what you do can be useful and continues as a good project.<\/p>\n<p>And this has been also very important to continue at the beginning. So that was a little story and why it was very important for us to take today the opportunity to thank you a bit for what you did for us.<\/p>\n<p>But we did not want to impose the choice to the team because we believe that there are several organizations that are doing very useful work, which is in accordance with our values. And so, we selected several NGOs and we asked the team of Jus Mundi to vote for one of them. And we are super happy that MRA had the biggest number of votes and you are far ahead of the second one. So, I&#8217;m very happy today to have this opportunity and to welcome Stephania and Saida of this interview.<\/p>\n<p>We will be doing the interview in English and French, but normally you have the subtitles in French and\/or English, so you just have to pick the subtitles in the preferred language, and you will be able to follow the whole interview.<\/p>\n<p>So, thanks again for being here. And we will start with a question, which is for both of you, which is to know a bit about yourself and about your background.<\/p>\n<p><strong>So, tell us what you did before setting up MRA? And I think we start with Stephanie.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie Willman Bordat<\/strong>: Hi, thank you very much, Jean-R\u00e9mi, thanks to everyone at Jus Mundi. The decision and the award were a big surprise to us. And so, we&#8217;re quite grateful and excited and thank you for the introduction as well, because I think it shows really how social change for human rights happens.<\/p>\n<p>You know, there was an idea we kind of shared it and other people picked it up and appropriated it, kind of ran with it, and exciting things like that emerge. So that&#8217;s how social change happens. And it also happens even though it makes us feel old. it also happens through those very long-term relationships between people and between institutions. So, speaking of long term, it\u2019s kind of hard for me to say what I did before MRA, because Saida and I have been working here in Morocco together for 20 years, so it&#8217;s hard to remember. But I personally have always been working, I&#8217;ve always only worked in the context of nonprofits working for women&#8217;s rights, whether it was, you know, back when I was a student in the United States, I was both a staff member for women&#8217;s rights nonprofits and volunteer sexual assault crisis counselor in a local hospital.<\/p>\n<p>I was lucky enough during my educational training to do my internships with local human rights NGOs overseas and other countries in Pakistan and in Egypt and the Netherlands. And that was a very sort of humbling experience and taught me a lot. And then professionally, I always wanted to do women&#8217;s legal and human rights in Morocco. So, I did a double law degree. I did my common law JD in the United States at Columbia Law School. And then I did my <em>ma\u00eetrise en droit<\/em> at Paris I Sorbonne to have that \u201c<em>double formation<\/em>\u201d to be able to work on women&#8217;s human rights more appropriately within the Moroccan context.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Thank you very much, Stephanie. And you&#8217;re right, the inspiration is very important, and we need these connections to be able to grow old together. And I had the opportunity to visit you once in Morocco. And that&#8217;s when I also met Saida, but Saida, I\u2019ll let you introduce yourself, Saida and tell us what you did before.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida Kouzzi:<\/strong> Thank you very much Jean-R\u00e9mi, thank you very much for the presentation and above all, thank you very much to the whole Jus Mundi team for this opportunity to continue the collaborative work. Thank you very much. If I want to introduce myself, I&#8217;d tell you about my professional experience. I am a lawyer by training and my professional experience started where I had the opportunity to deal with cases about women and also to see the legal vacuum and legal deficiencies in Moroccan law.<\/p>\n<p>This is what pushed me to become a human rights defender and to be a professional human rights defender. Before that, I joined several NGOs, particularly the Moroccan Human Rights Association, where I really grew up and learned a lot. But it is also thanks to this experience that I still had the conviction that it is necessary to specialize in women&#8217;s human rights, if we really want things to change. So, before joining my current job, I worked for a long time in several women&#8217;s NGOs. My current work allows me to have contact with NGOs, with lawyers in many countries and on several topics related to women&#8217;s human rights. All this really allows me to do my work, to develop projects, to implement and also to evaluate everything we do, especially in North Africa, with a global and systemic approach on women&#8217;s human rights.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Thank you, Saida. I really like that you said that you became a professional defender of rights and I also have this image that jurists are defenders of other people\u2019s rights and for the record, that&#8217;s why the Jus Mundi logo is a shield. We believe that the law can be a defense for people, and it should be able to be used that way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>So now it&#8217;s a question for Stephanie, if you can tell us a bit more about what is MRA&#8217;s mission? What prompted its creation? How many countries do you operate in today?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> Sure. As you mentioned, we&#8217;re based, and we&#8217;ve always been based, in Morocco, and we currently have projects going on not just in Morocco across the country, but in Tunisia as well. We worked in Tunisia for quite many years. And then we&#8217;ve also had occasion to work several years in Algeria and as well as at a distance in Libya. So, we try to cover most of the Maghreb. Our mission really specifically is to promote women&#8217;s legal and human rights through initiatives, through legal empowerment initiatives. And so even though Saida and I both were trained as lawyers, when we talk about doing legal empowerment initiatives, it&#8217;s much broader than just legislation or court decisions. With legal empowerment, you know, we&#8217;re trying to use the law and legal concepts and legal systems as organizing tools to help strengthen the disadvantaged, you know, for disadvantaged groups of people like women in particular, to influence and have an impact on how the state services responds to their issues, with an overarching goal of creating social change. So, we do situate our work within our mission in the context of promoting women&#8217;s human and legal rights through this broad definition of legal empowerment. And we take a very holistic approach to our work or a holistic approach to creating social change. We&#8217;re focused on creating social change in a couple of different areas. Obviously, the law is one of them, whether it&#8217;s legislation or in court decisions.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>A second area in this holistic approach is structural change, the systems and the procedures and the capacities of the institutions, like law enforcement, like health services, like the justice system to be responsive to women&#8217;s human rights needs. There&#8217;s obviously always an element of cultural change, you know, people&#8217;s beliefs, people&#8217;s attitudes, people&#8217;s values, people&#8217;s practices. And then finally, the fourth element of change that&#8217;s part of our mission is to foster relationships change, whether it&#8217;s relationships between NGOs and the women they serve or between NGOs and the government, state actors and public authorities that they work with, or a whole host of other different relationships that have traditionally been based on discriminatory factors, based on hierarchy, etc., that basically prevents people from exercising and benefiting from their human rights. So, we take that holistic approach to our work and made that our deliberate mission. And probably what prompted the creation of MRA was, this need to change relationships, change the way that people were working. We have a way of a model of operating that really practices what we preach in terms of human rights, you know, how do you operationalize, how do you not just talk about international human rights, but how do you operationalize them in practice and how your behaviours and all of your operating practices really reflect the human rights values that you promote, whether it&#8217;s by having a decentralised way of operating, horizontal relationships or especially, you know, a grassroots level strategy. You know, again, if the goal and the mission is to strengthen the disadvantaged to have an impact.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Thank you very much for this explanation and yes, that&#8217;s also linked with what you said at the beginning, like the change comes with the long term and deep work on many aspects of the society to improve the situation. And OK, so I have another question now, for Saida and we switch to French.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida, what are the achievements of MRA to this date? What are the numbers you would like to give on the impact MRA has on a daily basis?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida:<\/strong> Since the beginning, MRA has worked on a variety of topics and themes, and, as Stephanie described, with an inclusive approach, from popular education of women to legal support for women in front of diverse administrations, to action research on different issues affecting women&#8217;s human rights, monitoring and the documentation especially of the State&#8217;s response to women&#8217;s issues, strategic litigation especially with lawyers, legislative reforms for the strengthening of legislation and the strengthening of women&#8217;s human rights as well as international advocacy. Truthfully, at the beginning, when we started, we asked ourselves: where do we start, with whom and how? I remember very well, we had a meeting together and we said OK, where are we going to start? And the answer was really simple: you have to start from scratch. You need to start from the beginning.<\/p>\n<p>Through a popular education program on women&#8217;s human rights that really aims to strengthen women&#8217;s individual and collective capacities, to know their rights, defend their rights and mobilize to obtain a change and make women partners and not beneficiaries. We really have done a huge job that reached thousands and thousands of women across Morocco. Hundreds of NGOs that are currently working with this program independently of us. So, it&#8217;s a program that has been adopted by everyone on the field. This program has really enabled us to reach out to women all over Morocco, in the Sahara, in the Atlas Mountains, in the Rif\u2026 Everywhere in Morocco. Because it&#8217;s a program that didn&#8217;t require a lot of means, that didn&#8217;t require a lot of effort. All you need is a group of women, even in the fields, in a factory, in a neighborhood, and a facilitator who speaks the language of these women, for this program to be carried out.<\/p>\n<p>This program has allowed us to reach groups of women who, until then, were not included in the different programs at all. For example, sex workers, Amazigh women, women with disabilities, so several categories of women. In some areas that are marginalized, remote, in large cities in poor neighborhoods or in rural areas that the programs did not reach at that time. So, this program really allowed us from the beginning to work all over Morocco. And that really is the greatest asset now. Because afterwards, in order to move on to the different legal support programs, it was easy to have access to women. It was easy to have access to the different lawyers. It was easy to do whatever program we were targeting. Because of this program and of course the other programs that followed, like \u00a0the women&#8217;s legal accompaniment program, through which the different associations support women in court, to make sure that what they saw in the legal education program is going to be applied, that there&#8217;s going to be someone who is going to control, who is going to monitor what is being practiced in the field, and to make sure that it&#8217;s not just words that are given to women. Because at a certain point, the reality between what women learned in this program and the daily reality of the women, there was a gap. The legal accompaniment reinforced this program (the legal education program). After that, there was the strategic litigation program for lawyers, to introduce them to the application of international standards in local litigation. Also, to complete what the women understood about international standards and to ensure that they will speak the same language with the lawyers.<\/p>\n<p>So, these are linked programs and each time a program is successful, the other programs can follow. So, the success, in itself, is the succession of these programs. It is also its application by different entities involved, whether it is the women, whether it is the lawyers, whether it is the authorities. Everyone is included in these programs. Currently, we have a contact list of about a hundred NGOs that have benefited from these programs and are partners in this program. There are hundreds, thousands of women who have also benefited from our programs. And even several times, I remember, one of the ambassadors who was in a mission in a remote region in the Sahara and he was surprised to find one of the programs they funded, in the middle of the Sahara. And that is also a success. Even if we didn&#8217;t necessarily work directly with this association, but there was a snowball phenomenon that took effect and our programs emerged everywhere.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Thank you very much Saida, I also think that it taught you a lot about the needs of the people you&#8217;re working for and allow you to stay directly connected to that. To start from the beginning, I think it makes sense. Indeed Stephanie, I have another question for you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Can you share with us one or two stories of women whose lives have been changed thanks to the work that you are doing at MRA?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> OK, well two things, one, you know, as nice as it would be to take credit for it and say, this woman&#8217;s life change because of our work at MRA, that&#8217;s kind of one of the problems with the women&#8217;s movement worldwide, that we always tend to take credit for things as if we did it, when really perhaps what we did was just make a little small contribution or plant the seed. So, I don&#8217;t want to take credit for something like that. I think the other the other comment, when you think about women&#8217;s rights, folks are always often thinking about what changed in the women. And we have to have women change. You know, women have to be empowered. Women have to be economically independent. This, that and the other. And that&#8217;s the approach called \u201cFix the Women.\u201d And we don&#8217;t subscribe to that approach. We think that the system and the state response have to change. And a lot of our work is to help empower women to participate, to create those changes where the changes should happen, which is in the system and in the state response.<\/p>\n<p>I guess I&#8217;ll take one illustrative example, perhaps to talk about the multifaceted, holistic process. When we started in one of the towns, a small town in a rural area where we work, we helped a group of young women set up an association. There was no women&#8217;s association there before. And this town was really known for its brothel prostitution. We started collaborating with this association and the first thing they did was to start doing legal and human rights education at the grassroots level program at the site I mentioned, and the association did a lot of outreach, went into the brothels, talked to the owners, talked with everyone, and they were able to integrate the sex workers into the legal and human rights education program. So, the women would come out of the houses and go to the sessions and learn about what the family code says and what the criminal code says, etc. But the association didn&#8217;t have separate classes for the sex workers. They just had all the women together. And in the beginning, the other women in the town were not happy about being mixed in with the sex workers. And they didn&#8217;t want to mix with them. And there was a lot of prejudices and discrimination going on. But as time went on in the program, the relationships between the women changed. And it was to the point where if one of the sex workers wasn&#8217;t there, the others would ask, where is she? She said she had a problem, let&#8217;s go out and find her, etc. So that changed the relationships between the women.<\/p>\n<p>Then as time went on, one of the women who was a sex worker, beneficiary of the legal and human rights education programs, actually integrated the executive board of the NGO. So, she was on their board, participated in the decision making, became a project manager herself within the NGO. So, we like this example because it&#8217;s an example of the individual empowerment of the social worker herself, but it also demonstrates the diversifying and inclusive impact it had on the NGO management structure. And just then to take this up another level to close the loop, this is one of the several NGOs across the country that participated with us in our very long term and with the end result, perhaps not entirely successful campaign for Violence Against Women Law in Morocco that was lasted over 10 years.<\/p>\n<p>As part of that, we did some international advocacy to the United Nations treaty monitoring bodies. And the first one we did was to the Committee Against Torture, responsible for monitoring Morocco&#8217;s compliance with its obligations under the Convention Against Torture and Violence Against Women, which is our major thematic topic, is a form of torture as far as the committee is concerned. So, including this NGO with the women beneficiary participants in their community, the sex workers and the other women they had, we organized discussion groups. The women talked about all of their problems with violence.<\/p>\n<p>We wrote a shadow report to the UN Committee Against Torture. We were able to go to Geneva to present that report to the committee with the members of the partner NGOs, including this one. And we presented it to the committee, and we&#8217;ve never done this before. So, we were very intimidated. And this is a UN committee and we had our little flyers that we gave them with our talking points and our question and then all of a sudden the committee got out our flyer and the different members looked at the Moroccan government and they said, we have questions for you. And they started reading all of the questions on our flyer about violence against women, you know, what are you doing for violence against women? Where is this law? Why is marital rape not criminalized?<\/p>\n<p>All of the issues that the women themselves, including the group of women in this small town had raised, and the Moroccan government actually had to spend that overnight preparing responses to those questions for the UN committee. And so, it was quite empowering for all of us, the NGOs present, as well as the women back in the village, because once we all left Geneva and came back, the NGO went back and told the women, look what happened. The Moroccan government was held accountable for their lack of response to violence against women, thanks to your feedback. So that&#8217;s sort of the trajectory that we like to describe of one-woman relationships in a community changing, giving contributions and having an impact on the state response to issues that concern you. That&#8217;s one example of the change we like to share.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi<\/strong>: That&#8217;s a really beautiful story, it&#8217;s really in this way planting a seed, and after many years, what will happen thanks to this work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida, I have a question about the pandemic, the COVID, over the last few months in Morocco, I learned that you sent a letter to the Moroccan Government calling for urgent actions against violence against women which has increased during the pandemic. What happened? What did the Moroccan government do after this letter?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida:<\/strong> Yes, indeed, From the beginning of the lockdown that lasted four months in Morocco, it was really a bit of a difficult time for us NGOs. But it was more difficult for women, because of being confined with a husband or with a partner in a limited space. So, we knew there was going to be a lot of work. But how could we overcome the barriers of the lockdown and get to these women?<\/p>\n<p>We established a system with all our partners all over Morocco, a communication system, with a WhatsApp group, a Facebook group, email, etc., The goal was to share information on measures that were being taken, on services available, on the prevalence of violence, etc. In order to do this, we developed a questionnaire to help associations monitor what was happening day by day, if they receive more calls from women, if there are women who find it more difficult to communicate with associations. What are the services available set up by the authorities? This system of communication has first of all made it possible to provide help to women. There were several women in several regions that were stuck with violent people, who had no other place to be sheltered.<\/p>\n<p>It was easy to communicate with the closest association for these women to find a place to stay for them, or to obtain permission for them to move to their families, or just to contact the prosecutor to facilitate contact between the woman stuck at home and the prosecutor, etc. This system of communication has allowed us, first of all, to provide concrete services to women, but it has also allowed us to monitor the deficiencies in the responses of the public authorities at this time. So, we were able to detect several problems in the authorities&#8217; response, which was a face-to-face system and it wasn\u2019t based on the fact that the woman can call.<\/p>\n<p>There&#8217;s something else they put it in place, which was based on access to the Internet, even though the majority of women don&#8217;t have access to it. Either the husband deprives his wife of a telephone, or the woman cannot read or write, or she cannot afford to have a connection, etc. In addition to identifying their deficiencies in the responses, it allowed us to draw up a list of arguments with concrete points: If you really want an immediate response to violence against women, this is what you have to do. But it also allowed us to see some exemplary responses, some positive responses in how authorities at the local level have been creative in overcoming these deficiencies. It allowed us to make a list of some positive practices, some good practices that have been developed during the lockdown, which we will use in our arguments to ask that these practices be integrated into the law.<\/p>\n<p>For example, in a small village in the Marrakech area, gendarmes took the decision, the initiative to remove the husband and move him away from the marital home instead of taking the wife out, something that does not exist in the law. So, on a practical level, it will allow us in the future to say: look, it works, and it worked, and it was only in a small village. So why do you refuse to include this in the law against violence against women, the removal of the violent husband instead of the wife and children having to leave, taking them to hostels or women&#8217;s shelters, etc.?<\/p>\n<p>The lesson of the lockdown is that there are many things that can be done and have been done during the lockdown. And that will allow us to argue our case in the future. Yes, that&#8217;s what we were talking about a little bit before these kinds of periods can help a lot people to be more creative. And the fact to use these examples and showing them to the Government Look, they&#8217;re moving faster than you are! It can be very efficient.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi: Stephanie, what are your goals, the goals of the organization for 2021 after all of that?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> Well, our first goal is hopefully to get out of Rabat and go back into the field because we are usually traveling around quite a bit to the different zones in Morocco we work in and to Tunisia, etc. Beyond that, I think in 2021 we&#8217;ve got three big thematic areas we&#8217;re working on. The first one is the impact of the pandemic on violence against women to so picking up where Saida left off. What we&#8217;re doing is specifically some work the local NGOs are working with their local systems actors, the police, the law enforcement and health sector, actually to do that kind of assessment and mapping of the good responses, the good practices that came out of the pandemic to see exactly if they can be consolidated into law. Along those lines, we&#8217;re also working with the, let&#8217;s call them non-traditional intermediaries who played a huge role during the lockdown, pharmacists, local little shop owners, tele-boutique owners, the people who carry bags at the train stations, cybercaf\u00e9 owners, etc. All these people who were kind of front-line responders to women, victims of violence without knowing it, that the women turn to during the lockdown. So, we&#8217;re part of that initiative. The local NGOs are also working with them to figure out what they might need and build their capacities for women&#8217;s human rights, you know, as community resources, should this ever happen again. Let me just show you, we also as part of our COVID no to violence against women during COVID project. We&#8217;re working with the local NGOs now to do special facemasks for the 16 days of activism on violence against women, which is going on now. We just got them in the mail, so you will see.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Very, very nice!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> These are our special No Violence Against Women face facemasks. They were produced by women&#8217;s cooperatives across the country. We&#8217;re working with a couple of local partners and women&#8217;s cooperatives to produce these. And this one says in Arabic and Amazigh, the state has a responsibility to protect me from violence. So that&#8217;s the first thematic area we&#8217;re working on in 2021.<\/p>\n<p>The second thematic area that we&#8217;re focusing on is sexual violence against women. So, rape and sexual assault, with the goal of having with the local NGOs coordinating and working with the local state actors in the justice, law enforcement, and health sectors to have a better response to sexual violence against women in these cases.<\/p>\n<p>We would love to see, although I&#8217;m not sure this is a reasonable, realistic goal for 2021, but a more long term goal, we would love to see sexual relations outside of marriage in Morocco decriminalized because right now sexual relations outside of marriage are illegal in Morocco, which is the single most biggest obstacle to women reporting rape because they risk being prosecuted themselves. Then the third thematic area that we&#8217;re working on in 2021 is technology facilitates violence against women. So, everything like cyber stalking, revenge porn, online harassment and all of that. And we&#8217;ll be working with Internet service Providers, the local telephone companies, as well as social media platforms,\u00a0 Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and all of that to see how they can better address technology facilitated violence against women to prevent it from happening through their platforms and services and technologies, protect women better and punish the perpetrators.<\/p>\n<p>So those are three agenda items for 2021. It&#8217;s very, very interesting and super important, as you know, I also a bit of time in Morocco and I could understand, I don&#8217;t know, but see for younger Moroccans, how it can be complicated to have a relationship, this sort of relationship outside of marriage. And what kind of pressure, huge pressure it put on young Moroccan women. So, it&#8217;s very important for them to be able to do as they would like with their own lives.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi: <\/strong>Saida, MRA has already received donations from all over the world, including from several governments.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jus Mundi and its customers are very happy to support your project this year. Can you tell us if you have a particular plan in relation to Jus Mundi and its clients\u2019 donation?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida:<\/strong> Yes, indeed. This donation is like a Christmas gift for us. It&#8217;s been, I think 2 or 3 years that I and Stephanie have been talking about a project that we would really like to realize but there were not really the means to do it. It&#8217;s our Marsadnissa, which is an Observatory of courts decisions for women&#8217;s human rights that we launched several years ago. It&#8217;s a program that came after the strategic litigation program that we had already talked about for lawyers and in order to plead international norms before courts. And through this work, we realized that there are many problems with sharing of information and jurisprudence. There is not really circulation, a means or a channel through which information is published so that all lawyers throughout Morocco can easily be aware of jurisprudence that is developing across the country on the issue of women&#8217;s human rights.<\/p>\n<p>So, the idea of this Marsadnissa came from there, an observatory to collect and publish different courts decisions that affect women&#8217;s human rights from all over Morocco, and that will allow people to monitor and to comment on how the different courts decide in women&#8217;s rights cases. It also allows analysis of the different decisions that are rendered from a human rights perspective and approach. So it&#8217;s a website or an electronic database where all lawyers who may have had a decision before a court can share it so that other lawyers can easily have access to it, or any legal researcher or any woman who needs to know more about cases similar to her case and will be able to easily access this website \u00a0with search features that are accessible to everyone, therefore to professionals as well as to the public, in order to document, search, know, share, etc.<\/p>\n<p>This website currently reaches more than 14,000 people who consult it. But for us, since we have developed a website or a similar observatory in Tunisia, we are beginning to feel the need to update the platforms of this Morocco website, to make some updates regarding search features, keywords, etc. The need to introduce new laws that have been enacted since, etc.<\/p>\n<p>So, there is really a lot of work that needs to be done on this website. But so far, we haven&#8217;t really had the means to tackle it. The idea, for us, is that thanks to this donation, we will be able to update it and it will be operational as soon as possible. So, once again, thank you very much because it will allow us to do something that is really important for us, and not just a project that has been developed. But which is something that we really care about.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Thank you also very much for continuing to develop this project because, whether it&#8217;s collaborative, sharing information, it&#8217;s also something that&#8217;s very important for us and we believe very much in the possibility of being able to succeed in collecting law and making it more useful. We couldn&#8217;t imagine a project more in line with our ideology at Jus Mundi. So, we are very happy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie, how can other donors contribute to the organization if they would like to?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie: <\/strong>Well, we happily accept, financial contributions and support by bank transfer, our bank is set up to receive donations and transfers in hard currency. So not just Moroccan Dirham etc. And then we&#8217;re also happy to direct potential donors to some of the local partner NGOs that we work with at the grassroots level across the country. If they&#8217;re particularly interested in a particular region or area of the country or to support smaller local grassroots associations, we can facilitate that as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> I know that for many of our users and clients, women right is very important for them. So, I hope they will see this interview and I urge them to contact you directly. We put all the links beside the video so they can be in touch with you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Are there other ways for people, for donors to help you other than making a financial contribution?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie: <\/strong>Yeah, where we found supporters and donors to be useful, and very helpful and contribute to our work has been well, first of all, with facilitating access to information or resources. Sometimes donors, by virtue of their jobs, their positions, etc. have access to certain information or different resources whether technological or otherwise that it&#8217;s useful to have shared with. Where we&#8217;ve also found donors quite helpful for our advocacy work is facilitating relationships with decision-makers and other key stakeholders for our advocacy. That&#8217;s also because we&#8217;re working so much on the ground. Having the support of meeting those higher-level decision-makers is also quite helpful.<\/p>\n<p>And then, as Saida mentioned with our Marsadnissa Online Observatory of local court decisions related to women&#8217;s rights that we have in Morocco, and then a second one is as well in Tunisia, we&#8217;re currently exploring the possibilities for having legal volunteers with Arabic skills contribute to the synthesis and analysis of those decisions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> So, it&#8217;s a very good point, and we had several legal contributors at Jus Mundi who speak Arabic and we still have several today. We will also pass the message on them and let them know to be in touch with you, if they would like to contribute to the project.<\/p>\n<p>And so, I have one last question. But before asking this question, I also want to thank Luciana and Sneha from the Jus Mundi team who helped us prepare this interview, to work on this idea for the past week and more generally the whole Jus Mundi team who voted for you and give us the opportunity to have this chance to discuss.<\/p>\n<p>And I will ask my last question in French, but I guess you will both give us an answer. So, my last question is:<\/p>\n<p><strong>What is your message to all women?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida:<\/strong> In all seriousness, I don&#8217;t really have any messages for women as the majority of messages, programs, activities so far have been addressed to women and the burden of change has been put on women.<\/p>\n<p>My message will rather be intended for all public or private entities, for all men. If we really want changes, and especially if we really want to put an end to violence against women, we need changes, but concrete changes in men\u2019s behavior. If there is going to be any actions, they really have to come from men, and men&#8217;s behaviors.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> I think this is a very good idea. The effort should be on everyone&#8217;s shoulders and we must not let people think that women who should take care of the situation. The education of men is very important.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie, do you want to add something?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie<\/strong>: I guess I would just add to and build on what Saida said, because it&#8217;s to all the women out there, whatever you might be going through, it&#8217;s not your fault. First of all, I think we can&#8217;t say that enough no matter where we are. One of the things we found in our violence against women&#8217;s work is that women are continually being blamed by the communities, by their families, being blamed by the justice system. The entire legal response to violence against women is based on blaming the women, and women then internalize that blame themselves. So, the first thing and main thing I will say is it&#8217;s not your fault.<\/p>\n<p>And the best slogan I ever saw on a tote bag at a conference once was, hey, girls, you&#8217;re not ugly, society is. So that&#8217;s what I would have as my last word.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Perfect. And it was such a pleasure for me to have this discussion with you. Thank you once again for all the inspiration that you give to me, to us, but also, I believe to all the people who will be listening to us today. And I hope that this pandemic will be soon over, and we can see each other in person very soon.<\/p>\n<p>Saida, Stephanie, thank you for this interview. and I&#8217;ll see you soon<\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida:<\/strong> Thank you to the entire team<\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> Thank you!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Transcript in French:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi de Maistre:<\/strong> Bonjour tout le monde, je suis Jean-R\u00e9mi de Maistre (CEO, Jus Mundi) et au nom de toute l&#8217;\u00e9quipe Jus Mundi, je souhaite \u00e0 tous de joyeuses f\u00eates. On esp\u00e8re que 2021 sera meilleur que 2020 et ne sera pas aussi compliqu\u00e9 et qu&#8217;on pourra reprendre une vie normale ou du moins s&#8217;en approcher.<\/p>\n<p>L&#8217;ann\u00e9e pass\u00e9e qui \u00e9tait notre premi\u00e8re ann\u00e9e, Jus Mundi a offert \u00e0 tous ses clients un cadeau. Cette ann\u00e9e, nous avons d\u00e9cid\u00e9 de faire les choses autrement. Nous avons d\u00e9cid\u00e9 de faire, au nom de nos clients, une donation \u00e0 une ONG. Cette ONG est Mobilising for Right Associates, ou MRA, ou alors, je peux aussi le prononcer &#8220;Imraa&#8221; qui signifie femme en arabe. Veuillez excuser mon accent.<\/p>\n<p>MRA est une organisation internationale \u00e0 but non lucratif bas\u00e9e \u00e0 Rabat au Maroc, mais qui agit dans tout le Maghreb. Nous avons d\u00e9cid\u00e9 d&#8217;interviewer <strong>Stephanie Willman Bordat<\/strong> et <strong>Saida Kouzzi<\/strong>, qui sont les deux co-fondatrices de MRA afin d&#8217;en apprendre plus sur leurs missions, sur la raison de la cr\u00e9ation de cette organisation ainsi que pour la faire connaitre. Nous estimons que ce qu&#8217;elles font est incroyable et nous esp\u00e9rons que beaucoup de personnes pourront entendre parler de leur travail.<\/p>\n<p>Avant cela, permettez-moi de faire une petite introduction pour expliquer comment est-ce que je connais MRA et pourquoi nous avons choisi cette organisation pour la donation, mais \u00e9galement comment nous l&#8217;avons choisie en interne. Pour faire simple, tr\u00e8s probablement Jus Mundi n&#8217;aurait\u00a0 pas exist\u00e9 sans MRA. J&#8217;ai rencontr\u00e9 St\u00e9phanie en 2012, alors que j&#8217;\u00e9tais jeune \u00e9tudiant en droit international. Comme la plupart de mes camarades, j&#8217;\u00e9tais \u00e0 cette \u00e9poque \u00e0 la fois impressionn\u00e9 par les promesses du droit international, \u00e0 savoir la promotion de la paix, des droits humains, la d\u00e9fense de valeurs communes comme l&#8217;environnement ou encore tout ce qui est important pour la plupart des avocats et des gens en g\u00e9n\u00e9ral, et en m\u00eame temps, les gens sont profond\u00e9ment d\u00e9\u00e7us parce que cela ne fonctionne pas si bien dans les faits.<\/p>\n<p>Nous avons beaucoup de trait\u00e9s, de comit\u00e9s, de cours, des tribunaux arbitraux, de la soft law, etc. Tout cela est tr\u00e8s important et a am\u00e9lior\u00e9 la situation, bien s\u00fbr. Cependant, l&#8217;\u00e9cart entre la th\u00e9orie concernant les droits proclam\u00e9s il y a 70 ans ou un peu moins, l&#8217;\u00e9cart entre ces droits et la situation concr\u00e8te sur le terrain est encore \u00e9norme. Et on le sait. Et cela nous donne le sentiment suivant : quel int\u00e9r\u00eat, \u00e7a ne fonctionne pas. Autant arr\u00eater le droit international et retourner au nationalisme. La grande question que j&#8217;avais \u00e0 cette \u00e9poque \u00e9tait : y a-t-il quelque chose qui peut \u00eatre fait afin d&#8217;am\u00e9liorer le syst\u00e8me juridique mondial contemporain\u00a0?<\/p>\n<p>C&#8217;\u00e9tait \u00e0 cette \u00e9poque que j&#8217;avais rencontr\u00e9 St\u00e9phanie et d\u00e9couvert le travail qu&#8217;elle effectuait avec Saida au sein de MRA. Je n&#8217;ai pas envie de dire \u00e0 votre place sur ce que fait MRA, je vais vous laisser l&#8217;expliquer. Juste pour vous en dire une petite partie sur votre activit\u00e9, qui consiste \u00e0 former et aider les avocats \u00e0 utiliser la Convention sur l&#8217;\u00e9limination de toutes les formes de discrimination \u00e0 l&#8217;\u00e9gard des femmes devant les tribunaux internes. Dans le cadre de cette formation en renforcement des capacit\u00e9s que vous leur fournissez, vous avez con\u00e7u un guide pour savoir comment utiliser la Convention et comment la plaider devant un juge. Avec un groupe d&#8217;\u00e9tudiants, en 2015 je pense, nous avions traduit ce guide de l&#8217;anglais au fran\u00e7ais. \u00c0 la premi\u00e8re page de ce guide, il y a une citation de Shanthi Dairiam, qui est fondatrice d&#8217;une ONG d\u00e9di\u00e9e \u00e0 la mise en \u0153uvre de la convention en Asie-Pacifique. Je vais lire cette citation que je trouve particuli\u00e8rement bien et tr\u00e8s importante. Elle dit: \u00a0Il reste beaucoup \u00e0 faire. Aujourd\u2019hui lorsque l\u2019on me demande: \u00ab Qu\u2019est-ce que la Convention peut r\u00e9ellement faire pour les femmes ? \u00bb Je r\u00e9ponds simplement, \u00ab Qu\u2019est-ce que vous comptez faire avec la Convention ? \u00bb Cela a \u00e9t\u00e9 une v\u00e9ritable prise de conscience pour moi. Je pense qu&#8217;am\u00e9liorer les r\u00e8gles de droit, ce n&#8217;est pas tant de cr\u00e9er plus de droit international.<\/p>\n<p>Bien s\u00fbr, il y a des domaines o\u00f9 nous avons besoin de nouveaux trait\u00e9s ou autre, mais la v\u00e9ritable question concerne la mise en \u0153uvre et l&#8217;application des normes. Partout dans le monde, il y a les m\u00eames cat\u00e9gories de personnes dans chaque pays qui sont charg\u00e9es de l&#8217;application et de la mise en \u0153uvre de ces r\u00e8gles. Ce sont les juges et les avocats locaux, des gens qui mettent tout cela en application. C&#8217;\u00e9tait l&#8217;id\u00e9e fondatrice de Jus Mundi, c&#8217;est-\u00e0-dire utiliser la technologie pour donner \u00e0 la communaut\u00e9 juridique internationale les moyens de renforcer le droit international en le rendant accessible, y compris en rendant accessible son application par les juges et tribunaux du monde entier. Bien s\u00fbr, il s&#8217;agit d&#8217;un projet immense, particuli\u00e8rement compliqu\u00e9 et nous sommes probablement \u00e0 1% de ce que nous souhaitons faire \u00e0 Jus Mundi. Nous n&#8217;avons pas encore abord\u00e9 les droits de l&#8217;homme, parce que nous avons rapidement compris que nous devions proc\u00e9d\u00e9 par \u00e9tape, un domaine du droit \u00e0 la fois, et nous avons choisi des mati\u00e8res pour lesquelles il est facile de commencer une telle entreprise. Cela dit, Jus Mundi continue de grandir et de s&#8217;\u00e9tendre. Si hier nous avions fait le droit des investissements, demain ce sera les droits de l&#8217;homme, l&#8217;environnement, les droits sociaux, et tout cela nous int\u00e9resse particuli\u00e8rement.<\/p>\n<p>Comme vous l&#8217;avez compris, MRA a \u00e9t\u00e9 une source d&#8217;inspiration pour nous mais \u00e9galement de soutien parce que durant les premiers mois et premi\u00e8res ann\u00e9es de construction de ce projet, Stephanie et Saida nous ont beaucoup soutenus, notamment psychologiquement en nous disant que ce que nous faisons \u00e9tait tr\u00e8s utile, qu&#8217;il fallait continuer parce que c&#8217;\u00e9tait un bon projet. Ce soutien a \u00e9t\u00e9 important pour nous lors de nos d\u00e9buts. C&#8217;\u00e9tait notre petite histoire, qui explique pourquoi c&#8217;\u00e9tait important pour nous de saisir cette opportunit\u00e9 pour vous remercier pour ce que vous aviez fait pour nous.<\/p>\n<p>En revanche, nous ne voulions pas imposer ce choix \u00e0 notre \u00e9quipe parce que nous estimons qu&#8217;il y a plusieurs organisations qui font un travail utile en accord avec nos valeurs. Nous avions donc s\u00e9lectionn\u00e9 plusieurs ONG et nous avions demand\u00e9 \u00e0 l&#8217;\u00e9quipe Jus Mundi de choisir l&#8217;une d&#8217;elles. Nous sommes ravis que MRA a eu le plus grand nombre de votes et vous \u00eates loin devant l&#8217;ONG arriv\u00e9e en seconde place. Je suis tr\u00e8s heureux aujourd&#8217;hui d&#8217;avoir cette opportunit\u00e9 et d&#8217;accueillir St\u00e9phanie et Saida pour cette interview. Nous ferons cette interview en anglais et en fran\u00e7ais mais normalement, nous aurons les sous-titres en fran\u00e7ais et en anglais. Vous n&#8217;aurez plus qu&#8217;\u00e0 choisir le sous-titre dans la langue que vous souhaitez et vous pourrez suivre l&#8217;int\u00e9gralit\u00e9 de l&#8217;interview.<\/p>\n<p>Merci encore d&#8217;\u00eatre ici. Nous allons commencer par une question qui s&#8217;adresse \u00e0 vous deux pour en connaitre plus sur vous.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dites-nous qu&#8217;avez vous avant de cr\u00e9er MRA. Nous pouvons commencer avec St\u00e9phanie.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie Willman Bordat\u00a0<\/strong>: Bonjour, merci beaucoup Jean-R\u00e9mi. Merci \u00e0 tout le monde \u00e0 Jus Mundi. La d\u00e9cision et la donation \u00e9taient une v\u00e9ritable surprise pour nous. Nous en sommes tr\u00e8s reconnaissants et tr\u00e8s excit\u00e9s. Merci pour l&#8217;introduction, qui montre v\u00e9ritablement comment se produit le changement social pour les droits de l&#8217;homme. Il y a eu une id\u00e9e, que nous avons partag\u00e9, d&#8217;autres personnes l&#8217;ont reprise, se la sont appropri\u00e9e et ont fait avec. Et des choses passionnantes comme \u00e7a \u00e9mergent. C&#8217;est comme \u00e7a que le changement social arrive. M\u00eame si cela ne nous rajeunit pas, cela se produit \u00e9galement \u00e0 travers ces relations \u00e0 tr\u00e8s long terme entre des personnes et entre des institutions. En parlant de long terme, il est compliqu\u00e9 pour moi de dire ce que je faisais avant MRA. Saida et moi-m\u00eame avons travaill\u00e9 ensemble ici au Maroc pendant 20 ans. C&#8217;est donc compliqu\u00e9 de se rappeler.<\/p>\n<p>J&#8217;ai personnellement toujours travaill\u00e9. Je n&#8217;ai travaill\u00e9 que dans le cadre d&#8217;organisations non-lucratives pour les droits des femmes. Que ce soit \u00e0 l&#8217;\u00e9poque o\u00f9 j&#8217;\u00e9tais \u00e9tudiante aux Etats-Unis, j&#8217;\u00e9tais \u00e0 la fois personnel d&#8217;organismes \u00e0 but non lucratif de d\u00e9fense des droits des femmes et conseill\u00e8re b\u00e9n\u00e9vole dans le cadre d&#8217;agression sexuelle dans un h\u00f4pital local. J&#8217;ai eu la chance durant ma formation p\u00e9dagogique d&#8217;effectuer\u00a0 un stage au sein d&#8217;ONG locales de d\u00e9fense des droits humains \u00e0 l&#8217;\u00e9tranger au Pakistan, en Egypte et aux Pays Bas. C&#8217;\u00e9taient des exp\u00e9riences pleines d&#8217;humilit\u00e9 qui m&#8217;ont beaucoup appris. D&#8217;un point de vue professionnel, j&#8217;ai toujours voulu faire du droit humain pour les femmes au Maroc. J&#8217;ai ait une double licence de droit, J&#8217;ai fait mon JD de common law aux Etats-Unis \u00e0 l&#8217;Universit\u00e9 de Columbia. Puis j&#8217;ai effectu\u00e9 ma ma\u00eetrise en droit \u00e0 Paris1, \u00e0 la Sorbonne, pour b\u00e9n\u00e9ficier d&#8217;une double formation et pouvoir travailler dans le domaine des droits humains des femmes de mani\u00e8re plus appropri\u00e9 dans le contexte marocain.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Merci beaucoup St\u00e9phanie, Tu as raison, l&#8217;inspiration est tr\u00e8s importante et nous avons besoin de ces connexions pour avancer ensemble. J&#8217;ai d&#8217;ailleurs eu l&#8217;occasion de te rendre visite au Maroc. C&#8217;est d&#8217;ailleurs comme \u00e7a que j&#8217;ai eu l&#8217;opportunit\u00e9 de rencontrer Saida.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida, je te laisse te pr\u00e9senter et nous raconter ton parcours.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida Kouzzi: <\/strong>Merci, beaucoup Jean-R\u00e9mi, merci beaucoup pour la pr\u00e9sentation et surtout, merci beaucoup \u00e0 toute l&#8217;\u00e9quipe Jus Mundi pour cette opportunit\u00e9 de continuer le travail de collaboration. Merci. Si je veux me pr\u00e9senter, je vais dire qui il y a vraiment mon exp\u00e9rience professionnelle. Et l\u00e0, je suis juriste de formation et mon exp\u00e9rience professionnelle a d\u00e9marr\u00e9 dans un bureau d&#8217;avocats o\u00f9 j&#8217;avais l&#8217;occasion de traiter des cas, des femmes et aussi et surtout, de constater le vide juridique et les lacunes juridiques dans la loi marocaine. Chose qui m&#8217;a pouss\u00e9e \u00e0 devenir un d\u00e9fenseur des droits humains et a \u00eatre professionnel de m\u00e9tier comme d\u00e9fenseur des droits humains. Avant cela, j&#8217;ai adh\u00e9r\u00e9 \u00e0 plusieurs ONG, surtout l&#8217;Association marocaine des droits humains, o\u00f9 j&#8217;ai vraiment grandi et j&#8217;ai appris beaucoup de choses. Mais c&#8217;est aussi gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 cette \u00e9tape que j&#8217;ai encore eu la conviction qu&#8217;il faut se sp\u00e9cialiser sur les droits humains de la femme si on veut vraiment ou \u00e0 cr\u00e9er le changement. Donc, avant de rejoindre mon travail actuel, j&#8217;ai travaill\u00e9 pendant longtemps dans plusieurs ONG f\u00e9minines.<\/p>\n<p>Mon travail actuel me permet d&#8217;avoir le contact avec les ONG, avec les avocats dans plusieurs pays et sur plusieurs sujets relatifs aux droits humains des femmes. Tout cela me permet vraiment d&#8217;avoir de faire mon travail, de d\u00e9velopper les projets, de mettre en place et aussi d&#8217;\u00e9valuer tout ce que nous faisons, surtout au nord d&#8217;Afrique, avec une approche globale et syst\u00e9mique sur les droits humains des femmes. Donc, c&#8217;est un peu&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Merci, Saida. J&#8217;aime beaucoup que tu aies dit devenir professionnel, d\u00e9fenseuse des droits et j&#8217;ai aussi cette image que les juristes sont des d\u00e9fenseurs des autres personnes et d&#8217;ailleurs pour la petite histoire, c&#8217;est pour \u00e7a que le logo de Jus Mundi est un bouclier. On croit que le droit peut \u00eatre une d\u00e9fense pour les gens et il faut qu&#8217;il soit peut \u00eatre utilis\u00e9 ainsi.<\/p>\n<p>Maintenant, une question pour St\u00e9phanie.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peux-tu nous en dire plus sur les missions de MRA? Sur ce qui a motiv\u00e9 sa cr\u00e9ation? Et dans combien de pays est-ce que vous op\u00e9rez aujourd&#8217;hui?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> \u00a0Bien s\u00fbr! Nous sommes bas\u00e9s et avons toujours \u00e9t\u00e9 bas\u00e9s au Maroc. Nous avons actuellement des projets en cours non pas uniquement au Maroc, mais \u00e9galement en Tunisie. Nous travaillons en Tunisie depuis plusieurs ann\u00e9es. Nous avons \u00e9galement eu l&#8217;occasion de travailler quelques ann\u00e9es en Alg\u00e9rie mais aussi en Libye, \u00e0 distance. Nous essayons de couvrir tout le Maghreb.<\/p>\n<p>Notre mission est de promouvoir les droits humains et l\u00e9gaux des femmes, \u00e0 travers des initiatives, des initiatives d&#8217;autonomisation juridique. M\u00eame si Saida et moi-m\u00eame avons des formations d&#8217;avocats, quand il s&#8217;agit d&#8217;initiatives d&#8217;autonomisation juridique, c&#8217;est plus large que la l\u00e9gislation ou les d\u00e9cisions judiciaires. Avec l&#8217;autonomisation juridique, nous essayons d&#8217;utiliser la loi, les concepts juridiques, les syst\u00e8mes juridiques comme outils organisationnels pour aider \u00e0 renforcer les personnes vuln\u00e9rables, les groupes de personnes d\u00e9favoris\u00e9es comme les femmes, afin d&#8217;influencer et d&#8217;avoir un impact sur la fa\u00e7on dont les services de l&#8217;Etat r\u00e9pondent \u00e0 leurs probl\u00e8mes. Et ce avec un objectif primordial de cr\u00e9er un changement social. Nous positionnons notre travail et notre mission dans le contexte de la promotion des droits humains et juridiques des femmes \u00e0 travers cette large d\u00e9finition de l&#8217;autonomisation juridique. Nous adoptons une approche tr\u00e8s holistique de notre travail ou du moins une approche holistique pour cr\u00e9er un changement social. Nous nous concentrons \u00e0 cr\u00e9er un changement social dans diff\u00e9rents domaines. Bien s\u00fbr, le droit fait partie de ces domaines, que ce soit concernant la l\u00e9gislation ou les d\u00e9cisions de justice, De plus, un deuxi\u00e8me domaine dans le cadre de cette approche holistique concerne le changement structurel, c&#8217;est-\u00e0-dire les syst\u00e8mes, les proc\u00e9dures, les capacit\u00e9s des institutions comme l&#8217;application des loi, les services de sant\u00e9, le syst\u00e8me judiciaire, sa capacit\u00e9 \u00e0 r\u00e9pondre aux besoins des femmes en mati\u00e8re de droits humains.<\/p>\n<p>Il y a \u00e9videmment, toujours un \u00e9l\u00e9ment de changement culturel, \u00e0 savoir les croyances des gens, leur attitude, leurs valeurs, leurs pratiques.<\/p>\n<p>Le quatri\u00e8me \u00e9l\u00e9ment de changement faisant partie de notre mission est de favoriser le changement des relations, qu&#8217;il s&#8217;agisse de relations entre les ONG et les femmes qu&#8217;elles aident, ou entre les ONG et le gouvernement, les acteurs \u00e9tatiques ou les pouvoirs publics avec qui elles travaillent, ou encore toute une s\u00e9rie d&#8217;autres types de relations traditionnellement fond\u00e9es sur des facteurs discriminatoires, sur une hi\u00e9rarchie, etc. qui, au fond, emp\u00eache les gens d&#8217;exercer et de b\u00e9n\u00e9ficier de leurs droits humains. Ainsi, nous adoptons cette approche globale de notre travail et en avons d\u00e9lib\u00e9r\u00e9ment fait notre mission. Ce qui nous a probablement pouss\u00e9es \u00e0 cr\u00e9er MRA, c&#8217;est ce besoin de changer les relations, de changer la fa\u00e7on dont les gens travaillent.<\/p>\n<p>Nous avons un mod\u00e8le de fonctionnement qui a permis de mettre en pratique ce que nous pr\u00eachons en mati\u00e8re de droits humains. Autrement dit, comment ne pas seulement parler du droit international des droits de l&#8217;homme, mais les op\u00e9rationnaliser dans la pratique. Et comment les comportements ainsi que toutes les pratiques op\u00e9rationnelles refl\u00e8tent v\u00e9ritablement les valeurs des droits de l&#8217;homme qu&#8217;on promeut, que ce soit en ayant un mode de fonctionnement d\u00e9centralis\u00e9 ou des relations horizontales ou surtout, en ayant une strat\u00e9gie \u00e0 la base. Encore une fois, l&#8217;objectif est de favoriser les d\u00e9savantag\u00e9s, d&#8217;avoir un impact.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Merci beaucoup pour ces explications, C&#8217;est li\u00e9 \u00e0 ce que tu as dit au d\u00e9but, que le changement s&#8217;installe dans le long terme, avec un travail de fond sur plusieurs aspects soci\u00e9taux pour am\u00e9liorer la situation.<\/p>\n<p>J&#8217;ai maintenant une autre question pour Saida, et nous allons passer au fran\u00e7ais.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida, quels sont les accomplissements de MRA \u00e0 ce jour? Quels sont les chiffres que vous voudriez donner sur l&#8217;impact que MRA a au quotidien?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida:<\/strong> Depuis le d\u00e9but, MRA a travaill\u00e9 sur une diversit\u00e9 de sujets et de th\u00e8mes, et, comme l&#8217;a d\u00e9crit St\u00e9phanie, avec une approche assez inclusive, de l&#8217;\u00e9ducation populaire des femmes \u00e0 l&#8217;accompagnement juridique des femmes vers la diversit\u00e9 des administrations, \u00e0 la recherche action sur les diff\u00e9rents sujets qui touchent les droits humains de la femme, les monitoring et la documentation surtout de la r\u00e9ponse de l&#8217;Etat sur les questions des femmes, les litiges strat\u00e9giques surtout avec les avocats, les r\u00e9formes l\u00e9gislatives pour le renforcement de la l\u00e9gislation et le renforcement des droits humains des femmes ainsi que le plaidoyer international. M\u00eame pour dire vrai, au d\u00e9but, quand on a d\u00e9marr\u00e9, on s&#8217;est pos\u00e9 la question o\u00f9 on commence par o\u00f9, par qui et comment? Je me rappelle tr\u00e8s bien, on avait une r\u00e9union ensemble et on a dit OK, par o\u00f9 on va commencer? Et la r\u00e9ponse \u00e9tait vraiment d&#8217;une simplicit\u00e9: il faut commencer par le z\u00e9ro. Il faut commencer par le d\u00e9but.<\/p>\n<p>Gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 un programme d&#8217;\u00e9ducation populaire aux droits humains des femmes qui vise vraiment \u00e0 renforcer les capacit\u00e9s individuelles et collectives des femmes, \u00e0 conna\u00eetre leurs droits, d\u00e9fendre leurs droits et se mobiliser pour le changement et rendre les femmes des partenaires et pas des b\u00e9n\u00e9ficiaires. Nous avons vraiment fait un travail immense qui a touch\u00e9 des milliers et des milliers de femmes \u00e0 travers le Maroc. Des centaines d&#8217;ONG qui maintenant travaillent ce programme et continuent \u00e0 travailler ce programme ind\u00e9pendamment de nous. Donc, c&#8217;est un programme qui a \u00e9t\u00e9 adopt\u00e9 par tout le monde sur le terrain. Ce programme nous a vraiment permis d&#8217;aller vers les femmes partout au Maroc, au Sahara, en Atlas, au Rif&#8230; Partout au Maroc. Parce que c&#8217;est un programme qui ne n\u00e9cessitait pas de moyens, qui ne n\u00e9cessitaient pas beaucoup d&#8217;efforts. Il suffit d&#8217;avoir un groupe de femmes, m\u00eame dans les champs, dans l&#8217;usine, dans un quartier, ainsi qu&#8217;une animatrice qui parle le langage de ces femmes, pour que ce programme puisse \u00eatre r\u00e9alis\u00e9.<\/p>\n<p>Ce programme nous a permis de toucher des groupes de femmes qui jusqu&#8217;alors, \u00e0 cette \u00e9poque, n&#8217;\u00e9taient pas du tout inclus dans les diff\u00e9rents programmes. A titre d&#8217;exemple, les travailleuses du sexe, les femmes amazighes, les femmes en situation de handicap dans plusieurs cat\u00e9gories. Dans certaines r\u00e9gions qui sont marginalis\u00e9es, lointaines, que ce soit dans les grandes villes dans des quartiers pauvres ou que ce soit des zones rurales que les programmes ne touchaient pas \u00e0 cette \u00e9poque. Donc, ce programme nous a vraiment permis d\u00e8s le d\u00e9part de travailler partout dans le Maroc.<\/p>\n<p>Et \u00e7a, vraiment, c&#8217;est le plus grand atout actuellement. Parce qu&#8217;apr\u00e8s, pour passer aux diff\u00e9rents programmes d&#8217;accompagnement juridique, c&#8217;\u00e9tait facile d&#8217;avoir acc\u00e8s aux femmes. C&#8217;\u00e9tait facile d&#8217;avoir acc\u00e8s aux diff\u00e9rents avocats. C&#8217;\u00e9tait facile de r\u00e9aliser n&#8217;importe quel programme qu&#8217;on ciblait. Gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 ce programme et bien s\u00fbr, aux autres programmes qui ont suivi, comme le programme d&#8217;accompagnement juridique aux femmes ou les diff\u00e9rentes associations qui peuvent vraiment accompagner les femmes devant la justice, pour garantir que ce qu&#8217;ils ont vu dans le programme d&#8217;\u00e9ducation juridique va \u00eatre&#8230; On va dire, \u00e0 la limite, il va y avoir quelqu&#8217;un qui va contr\u00f4ler, qui va faire le monitoring de ce qui est pratiqu\u00e9 sur le terrain, et \u00e7a ne reste pas seulement des paroles qu&#8217;on donne aux femmes. Parce qu&#8217;\u00e0 un certain moment, la r\u00e9alit\u00e9 est devenue un peu entre ce que les femmes ont appris dans ce programme et la r\u00e9alit\u00e9 journali\u00e8re des femmes, c&#8217;\u00e9tait un peu le grand \u00e9cart.<\/p>\n<p>Le programme d&#8217;accompagnement juridique a renforc\u00e9 ce programme. Apr\u00e8s, il y avait le programme de litiges strat\u00e9gique avec les avocats, pour les initier \u00e0 appliquer les normes internationales dans les litiges locaux. Aussi, un peu, pour compl\u00e9ter ce que les femmes ont compris sur les normes internationales et garantir qu&#8217;elles vont parler le m\u00eame langage avec les avocats. Donc, ce sont des programmes enchain\u00e9s qu&#8217;un programme r\u00e9ussi permet de mener \u00e0 la suite. Donc la r\u00e9ussite, en soi, c&#8217;est la succession des programmes. C&#8217;est aussi son application par les diff\u00e9rentes entit\u00e9s concern\u00e9es, que ce soit les femmes, que ce soit les avocats, que ce soit les autorit\u00e9s. Tout le monde est int\u00e9gr\u00e9 dans ces programmes. Actuellement, on a une liste de contacts d&#8217;une centaine d&#8217;ONG qui sont qui a b\u00e9n\u00e9fici\u00e9 de ce programme et qui sont partenaires dans ce programme. Il y a des centaines, des milliers de femmes qui ont b\u00e9n\u00e9fici\u00e9 aussi de nos programmes. Et m\u00eame plusieurs fois, on a eu je me rappelle, un des ambassadeurs qui \u00e9tait dans une mission dans une r\u00e9gion lointaine au Sahara et il a eu la surprise de trouver un des programmes que eux ont financ\u00e9s, en plein Sahara. Et \u00e7a, c&#8217;est aussi une r\u00e9ussite. M\u00eame si nous, on n&#8217;a pas forc\u00e9ment travaill\u00e9 directement avec cette association mais il y a eu un ph\u00e9nom\u00e8ne de boule de neige qui a fait son travail et on est arriv\u00e9 partout.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Merci beaucoup Saida, c&#8217;est vrai que je pense aussi que \u00e7a vous a beaucoup appris sur le besoin des personnes pour lesquelles vous faites \u00e7a et de rester connect\u00e9 directement \u00e0 \u00e7a. De d\u00e9marrer par le d\u00e9but, je pense que \u00e7a fait sens. Effectivement, St\u00e9phanie, j&#8217;ai une autre question pour toi.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peux-tu partager avec nous une ou deux histoires de femmes dont la vie a chang\u00e9 gr\u00e2ce au travail de MRA.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> Ok. Deux \u00e9l\u00e9ments: L&#8217;une, aussi agr\u00e9able que cela peut \u00eatre de s&#8217;attribuer le m\u00e9rite et de dire que la vie d&#8217;une femme a chang\u00e9 gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 notre travail au sein de MRA, l&#8217;un des probl\u00e8mes des mouvements pro-femmes dans le monde est que nous avons toujours tendance \u00e0 nous attribuer le m\u00e9rite pour des choses comme si nous l&#8217;avions nous-m\u00eames fait, alors qu&#8217;en r\u00e9alit\u00e9, ce que nous avons fait n&#8217;\u00e9tait qu&#8217;une petite contribution, qu&#8217;une graine plant\u00e9e. Je ne veux pas m&#8217;attribuer un tel m\u00e9rite. Quant au deuxi\u00e8me commentaire, quand on parle de droits des femmes, les gens pensent souvent ce qui a chang\u00e9 chez les femmes et au fait que les femmes doivent changer. Les femmes qui doivent devenir plus autonomes. Les femmes doivent \u00eatre \u00e9conomiquement ind\u00e9pendantes. Ceci et cela&#8230; Et c&#8217;est une sorte d&#8217;approche qu&#8217;on appelle: R\u00e9parer les femmes. Nous n&#8217;adh\u00e9rons pas \u00e0 cette approche. Nous pensons que le syst\u00e8me et la r\u00e9ponse \u00e9tatique doivent changer. Une grande partie de notre travail consiste \u00e0 pousser les femmes \u00e0 participer \u00e0 cr\u00e9er les changements l\u00e0 o\u00f9 les changements doivent survenir, c&#8217;est-\u00e0-dire au sein du syst\u00e8me et de la r\u00e9ponse \u00e9tatique.<\/p>\n<p>Je vais prendre un exemple illustratif, pour parler d&#8217;une sorte de processus multiforme et globale. Quand nous avons commenc\u00e9 dans l&#8217;une des villes, des petites villes dans des zones rurales o\u00f9 nous avons travaill\u00e9, nous avons aid\u00e9 un groupe de jeunes femmes \u00e0 monter une association. Il n&#8217;y a jamais eu d&#8217;association de femmes \u00e0 cet endroit. Cette ville \u00e9tait connue pour ses maisons de prostitution. Nous avons commenc\u00e9 \u00e0 collaborer avec cette association et la premi\u00e8re chose qu&#8217;elles ont faite \u00e9tait de commencer \u00e0 faire le programme d&#8217;\u00e9ducation juridique et aux droits humains \u00e0 un niveau de base, programme que Saida d\u00e9j\u00e0 mentionn\u00e9. L&#8217;association a fait beaucoup de sensibilisation, est all\u00e9e dans les maisons closes, a discut\u00e9 avec les propri\u00e9taires,\u00a0 a parl\u00e9 avec tout le monde. Elles ont pu int\u00e9grer les travailleuses de sexe dans le programme d&#8217;\u00e9ducation juridique et aux droits humains. Ainsi, les femmes sortaient de ces maisons et se rendaient aux sessions pour apprendre ce que dit le code de la famille et ce que dit le code p\u00e9nal, etc. Mais l&#8217;association n&#8217;avait pas de cours s\u00e9par\u00e9s pour les travailleuses du sexe. Ils rassemblaient toutes les femmes.<\/p>\n<p>Au d\u00e9but, les autres femmes de la ville n&#8217;\u00e9taient pas tr\u00e8s satisfaites de cette mixit\u00e9 avec les travailleuses du sexe. Elles ne voulaient pas se m\u00e9langer avec elles. Il y avait beaucoup de pr\u00e9jug\u00e9s, de discriminations et autres. Mais, au fur et \u00e0 mesure du d\u00e9roulement du programme, les relations entre ces femmes ont chang\u00e9. C&#8217;est arriv\u00e9 au point o\u00f9, lorsque l&#8217;une des travailleuses du sexe n&#8217;\u00e9tait pas l\u00e0, les autres demandaient o\u00f9 est ce qu&#8217;elle \u00e9tait? Est-elle malade? A-t-elle des probl\u00e8mes?\u00a0 Allons la chercher et la trouver, etc. \u00c7a a donc chang\u00e9 les relations entre les femmes.<\/p>\n<p>Puis, au fil du temps, l&#8217;une des femmes qui \u00e9tait une travailleuse du sexe et a b\u00e9n\u00e9fici\u00e9 des programmes d&#8217;\u00e9ducation juridique et aux droits humains, a int\u00e9gr\u00e9 le conseil d&#8217;administration de l&#8217;ONG. Elle faisait donc partie de leur conseil d&#8217;administration, elle participait \u00e0 la prise de d\u00e9cision, elle est devenue chef de projet au sein de l&#8217;ONG. On aime cet exemple parce que c&#8217;est un exemple d&#8217;autonomisation individuel de l&#8217;une des travailleuses sociales, mais aussi parce que \u00e7a montre l&#8217;impact d&#8217;un point de vue de la diversit\u00e9 et de l&#8217;inclusion que \u00e7a a eu sur la structure de gestion de l&#8217;ONG. Si on veut monter d&#8217;un cran et fermer la boucle, il s&#8217;agit de l&#8217;une des ONG qui fait partie des nombreuses ONG \u00e0 travers le pays qui ont particip\u00e9 avec nous \u00e0 notre tr\u00e8s long mandat et avec un r\u00e9sultat final, \u00e0 savoir une campagne, peut \u00eatre pas totalement r\u00e9ussie, concernant une loi contre les violences faites aux femmes qui a dur\u00e9 plus de 10 ans.<\/p>\n<p>Mis \u00e0 part cela, nous avons fait un peu de plaidoyer international apr\u00e8s d&#8217;organes de suivi des trait\u00e9s des Nations Unies. Le premier devant lequel nous avons fait cela \u00e9tait le Comit\u00e9 contre la torture, charg\u00e9 de surveiller le respect de la Convention contre la torture et la violence \u00e0 l&#8217;\u00e9gard des femmes par le Maroc, La violence \u00e0 l&#8217;\u00e9gard des femmes, qui est notre th\u00e9matique principale, est une forme de torture pour le Comit\u00e9. Avec notamment cette ONG et avec les femmes qui en sont b\u00e9n\u00e9ficiaires, les travailleuses du sexe et les autres femmes, nous avons organis\u00e9 des groupes de discussion. Les femmes ont discut\u00e9 de leurs probl\u00e8mes avec la violence. Nous avons r\u00e9dig\u00e9 un rapport parall\u00e8le \u00a0au Comit\u00e9 des Nations Unies contre la torture.<\/p>\n<p>Nous avons pu nous rendre \u00e0 Gen\u00e8ve pour pr\u00e9senter le rapport au Comit\u00e9 avec des membres des ONG partenaires, y compris celle-ci. Et nous l&#8217;avons pr\u00e9sent\u00e9 au Comit\u00e9. On n&#8217;avait jamais fait cela auparavant, on \u00e9tait donc tr\u00e8s intimid\u00e9. Il s&#8217;agit d&#8217;un comit\u00e9 des Nations Unies, et nous avions nos petits prospectus que nous leur avions donn\u00e9s avec nos sujets de discussion et nos questions. Et tout \u00e0 coup, le Comit\u00e9 avait nos d\u00e9pliants, et les diff\u00e9rents membres se sont adress\u00e9s au gouvernement marocain en leur disant nous avons des questions \u00e0 vous poser. Et ils ont commenc\u00e9 \u00e0 lire toutes les questions dans notre d\u00e9pliant concernant les violences faites aux femmes, Que faites-vous contre les violences faites aux femmes? Pourquoi le viol conjugal n&#8217;est-il pas criminalis\u00e9? Tous les probl\u00e8mes que les femmes elles-m\u00eames, dont le groupe de femmes du petit village, avaient soulev\u00e9s. Et le gouvernement marocain a d\u00fb passer la nuit \u00e0 pr\u00e9parer les r\u00e9ponses \u00e0 ces questions pour le Comit\u00e9 des Nations Unies.<\/p>\n<p>C&#8217;\u00e9tait donc tr\u00e8s stimulant pour nous tous, les ONG pr\u00e9sentes, mais aussi pour les femmes du petit village parce qu&#8217;une fois qu&#8217;on a quitt\u00e9 Gen\u00e8ve et qu&#8217;on est rentr\u00e9, l&#8217;ONG est retourn\u00e9e voir les femmes en leur disant: voyez ce qu&#8217;il s&#8217;est pass\u00e9! Le Gouvernement marocain a \u00e9t\u00e9 tenu responsable pour son manque de r\u00e9ponse \u00e0 la violence faite aux femmes, gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 vos commentaires. C&#8217;est en quelque sorte la trajectoire qu&#8217;on aime montrer, celle des relations d&#8217;une femme dans une communaut\u00e9 qui changent, qui apporte des contributions et a un impact sur la r\u00e9ponse de l&#8217;\u00c9tat aux probl\u00e8mes qui vous concernent.\u00a0 C&#8217;est un exemple de changement qu&#8217;on aime partager.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> C&#8217;est une tr\u00e8s belle histoire, c&#8217;est vraiment comme planter une graine et apr\u00e8s plusieurs ann\u00e9es, il y a un r\u00e9sultat gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 votre travail.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida, j&#8217;ai une question concernant la pand\u00e9mie, le COVID, les derniers mois qui se sont pass\u00e9s au Maroc. J&#8217;ai vu que vous avez envoy\u00e9 une lettre au gouvernement marocain pour appeler \u00e0 prendre des mesures urgentes contre les violences faites aux femmes qui ont augment\u00e9 durant la pand\u00e9mie. Que s&#8217;est-il pass\u00e9? Qu&#8217;est-ce que le gouvernement marocain \u00e0 la suite de cette lettre? <\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida:<\/strong> Oui, effectivement. D\u00e8s le d\u00e9but du confinement qui a dur\u00e9 quatre mois au Maroc, c&#8217;\u00e9tait vraiment une p\u00e9riode un peu difficile pour nous, les ONG. Mais c&#8217;\u00e9tait plus difficile pour les femmes, parce que \u00eatre confin\u00e9es avec le mari ou le partenaire dans un espace limit\u00e9. Donc, on savait qu&#8217;il va y avoir beaucoup de travail. Mais comment peut-on d\u00e9passer les barri\u00e8res du confinement et arriver \u00e0 ces femmes?<\/p>\n<p>On a \u00e9tabli un syst\u00e8me avec tous nos partenaires partout au Maroc, un syst\u00e8me de communication, groupe Whatsapp, groupe Facebook, email, etc. L&#8217;objectif, c&#8217;\u00e9tait de partager les informations, de partager les renseignements sur les mesures qui sont prises, les services disponibles sur pr\u00e9valence des violences, etc. Pour cela, on a mis en place un questionnaire pour aider les associations \u00e0 faire le monitoring de ce qui se passe jour par jour, si ils re\u00e7oivent plus d&#8217;appels de femmes, S&#8217;il y a les femmes, qui trouvent plus de difficult\u00e9s pour communiquer avec les associations. Quels sont les services disponibles mis en place par les autorit\u00e9s? Ce syst\u00e8me de communication a permis en premier lieu d&#8217;apporter de l&#8217;aide aux femmes. Il y a eu plusieurs femmes dans plusieurs r\u00e9gions qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 coinc\u00e9es avec des personnes violentes, qui n&#8217;avaient pas o\u00f9 \u00eatre h\u00e9berg\u00e9es.<\/p>\n<p>C&#8217;\u00e9tait facile de communiquer avec l&#8217;association la plus proche de ces femmes pour leur trouver o\u00f9 h\u00e9berger, ou leur trouver l&#8217;autorisation pour se d\u00e9placer vers leur famille ou juste prendre contact avec le procureur pour faciliter le contact entre la femme coinc\u00e9e \u00e0 la maison et le procureur, etc. Ce syst\u00e8me de communication nous a permis en premier lieu d&#8217;apporter les services concrets aux femmes, mais \u00e7a nous a permis aussi de faire un peu le monitoring sur les lacunes dans les r\u00e9ponses des autorit\u00e9s publiques en cette p\u00e9riode.<\/p>\n<p>Donc l\u00e0, on a pu quand m\u00eame d\u00e9tecter plusieurs probl\u00e8mes dans la r\u00e9ponse dans la r\u00e9ponse des autorit\u00e9s, qui \u00e9tait un syst\u00e8me un peu bas\u00e9 sur le pr\u00e9sentiel et pas sur le fait que la femme peut appeler ou ou m\u00eame ce qu&#8217;ils ont mis en place, est bas\u00e9e sur l&#8217;acc\u00e8s \u00e0 l&#8217;internet, alors que la majorit\u00e9 des femmes n&#8217;y ont pas acc\u00e8s. Ou bien c&#8217;est le mari qui prive la femme de t\u00e9l\u00e9phone, ou bien la femme ne sait pas lire ou \u00e9crire, ou alors la femme n&#8217;a pas les moyens d&#8217;avoir la connexion, etc. En plus de dresser les lacunes dans les r\u00e9ponses, \u00e7a nous a permis de dresser une liste d&#8217;arguments avec des points concrets. Si vous voulez vraiment une r\u00e9ponse imm\u00e9diate d&#8217;urgence aux violences faites aux femmes, voil\u00e0 ce qu&#8217;il faut faire. Mais, \u00e7a nous a aussi permis de constater certaines r\u00e9ponses exemplaires, certaines r\u00e9ponses positives. Comment les autorit\u00e9s au niveau local ont \u00e9t\u00e9 cr\u00e9atives pour d\u00e9passer ces lacunes. \u00c7a nous a permis de faire de dresser une liste de certaines pratiques positives, certaines pratiques des bonnes pratiques se sont d\u00e9velopp\u00e9es pendant le confinement, sur lesquelles nous allons pouvoir nous baser pour faire du plaidoyer pour demander que ce soit int\u00e9gr\u00e9 dans la loi.<\/p>\n<p>\u00c0 titre d&#8217;exemple, dans un petit village dans la r\u00e9gion de Marrakech, les gendarmes ont pris la d\u00e9cision, l&#8217;initiative de d\u00e9loger le mari et de l&#8217;\u00e9loigner de la maison conjugale au lieu de faire sortir la femme, chose qui n&#8217;existe pas dans la loi. Donc, au niveau pratique, \u00e7a va nous permettre de dire dans le futur: regardez, \u00e7a marche et \u00e7a a march\u00e9. Et ce n&#8217;\u00e9tait que dans un petit village. Donc pourquoi refuser que la loi contre les violences faites aux femmes int\u00e8gre l&#8217;\u00e9loignement du mari et arr\u00eater de faire sortir la femme et les enfants, de les emmener dans les auberges ou dans des centres d&#8217;h\u00e9bergement pour femmes, etc. La le\u00e7on du confinement, c&#8217;est qu&#8217;il y a beaucoup de choses qui peuvent \u00eatre faites et qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 faites pendant le confinement. Et \u00e7a va nous permettre d&#8217;argumenter notre plaidoyer dans le futur.<\/p>\n<p>Oui, c&#8217;est ce dont on parlait un peu avant, les p\u00e9riodes comme celle-ci permettent \u00e0 plein de personnes d&#8217;\u00eatre cr\u00e9atives. Et le fait de prendre \u00e7a et de montrer au gouvernement. Regardez, ils avancent plus vite que vous, c&#8217;est tr\u00e8s efficace.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> <strong>Stephanie, quels sont vos objectifs, les objectifs de l&#8217;organisation pour 2021 ?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> Notre premier objectif serait d&#8217;enfin pouvoir sortir de Rabat et retourner sur le terrain, Parce que nous avons l&#8217;habitude de voyager dans les diff\u00e9rentes zones du Maroc o\u00f9 nous travaillons, ainsi qu&#8217;en Tunisie, etc. Au del\u00e0 de cela, pour 2021, nous avons 3 grandes th\u00e9matiques sur lesquelles nous allons travailler. La premi\u00e8re concerne l&#8217;impact de la pand\u00e9mie sur les violences faites aux femmes, pour reprendre l\u00e0 o\u00f9 Saida a termin\u00e9 son propos. Ce que nous faisons consiste en des travaux particuliers. Les ONG locales travaillent avec les acteurs locaux, la police, le secteur de l&#8217;application de la loi et celui de la sant\u00e9, afin de faire ce type d&#8217;\u00e9valuation et cartographier les bonnes r\u00e9ponses,\u00a0 les bonnes pratiques issues de la gestion de la pand\u00e9mie, pour voir si elles peuvent \u00eatre consolid\u00e9es dans une loi. Dans le m\u00eame sens, nous travaillons \u00e9galement avec ce que j&#8217;appellerai des interm\u00e9diaires non traditionnels, qui on jou\u00e9 un immense r\u00f4le durant le confinement, les pharmaciens, les petits commer\u00e7ants locaux, les propri\u00e9taires de t\u00e9l\u00e9-boutique, les porteurs de sac dans les gares, les propri\u00e9taires de cybercaf\u00e9s, etc. Toutes ces personnes qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 sur la ligne de front pour r\u00e9pondre aux femmes victimes de violence,\u00a0 sans le savoir, vers lesquelles les femmes se sont tourn\u00e9es durant le confinement. On fait donc partie de cette initiative.<\/p>\n<p>Les ONG locales travaillent \u00e9galement avec eux pour en quelque sorte d\u00e9terminer ce dont ils pourraient avoir besoin et renforcer leurs capacit\u00e9s en mati\u00e8re de droits humains des femmes, en tant que ressources communautaires, si cela se devait reproduire.<\/p>\n<p>Permettez-moi \u00e9galement de vous montrer, ce que nous aussi, dans le cadre du projet non \u00e0 la violence contre les femmes durant le COVID Nous travaillons avec des ONG locales actuellement, pour faire des masques sp\u00e9ciaux pour les 16 jours d&#8217;activisme contre la violence contre les femmes qui se d\u00e9roule actuellement. On vient de les recevoir par courrier.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Tr\u00e8s joli!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> Ce sont nos masques sp\u00e9ciaux \u00ab\u00a0Non aux violences faites aux femmes\u00a0\u00bb. Ils ont \u00e9t\u00e9 produit par des coop\u00e9ratives de femmes \u00e0 travers le pays. Nous travaillons avec quelques partenaires locaux dans des coop\u00e9ratives de femmes qui produisent \u00e7a Sur celui-ci, c&#8217;est \u00e9crit en arabe et en amazigh: l&#8217;Etat a la responsabilit\u00e9 de me prot\u00e9ger contre les violences. Donc c&#8217;est le premier domaine sur lequel nous travaillons en 2021.<\/p>\n<p>Le deuxi\u00e8me domaine th\u00e9matique sur lequel nous concentrons est la violence sexuelle contre les femmes, donc, viol et agression sexuelle, dans le but d&#8217;avoir, au sein d&#8217;ONG locales qui se coordonnent et qui travaillent avec les acteurs \u00e9tatiques locaux dans les secteurs de l&#8217;application des lois et de la sant\u00e9, d&#8217;avoir une meilleure r\u00e9ponse aux violences sexuelles contre les femmes dans ces cas.<\/p>\n<p>On aimerait vraiment voir, mais je ne suis pas sure que ce soit un objectif raisonnable, r\u00e9aliste pour 2021, mais dans un objectif \u00e0 long terme, on aimerait vraiment voir la d\u00e9p\u00e9nalisation des relations extra-maritales au Maroc, puisqu&#8217; actuellement, les relations extra-maritales sont ill\u00e9gales au Maroc, ce qui est le plus grand obstacle pour les femmes pour pouvoir signaler un viol puisqu&#8217;elles risquent d&#8217;\u00eatre elles-m\u00eames poursuivies.<\/p>\n<p>Puis, la troisi\u00e8me th\u00e9matique sur laquelle nous travaillons en 2021 est la violence faite aux femmes facilit\u00e9e par la technologie. Tout ce qui est cyberstalking, revenge porn, harc\u00e8lement en ligne, et ainsi de suite&#8230; Nous travaillerons avec les fournisseurs de services internet, donc les compagnies de t\u00e9l\u00e9phone, les compagnies locales de t\u00e9l\u00e9phones ainsi que les plateformes de r\u00e9seaux sociaux comme Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc. pour voir comment ils peuvent mieux lutter contre les violences faites aux femmes facilit\u00e9es par la technologie pour emp\u00eacher qu&#8217;elles se produisent \u00e0 travers leurs r\u00e9seaux et technologies, pour mieux prot\u00e9ger les femmes et punir les auteurs. Ce sont donc nos trois th\u00e9matiques dans notre agenda pour 2021.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> C&#8217;est tr\u00e8s tr\u00e8s int\u00e9ressant et super important. Comme vous le savez, j&#8217;ai pass\u00e9 pas mal de temps au Maroc et je pouvais comprendre, je ne sais pas, les jeunes marocains, et comment \u00e7a pouvait \u00eatre particuli\u00e8rement compliqu\u00e9 d&#8217;avoir une relation, ce type de relation hors mariage, et quel genre de pression, \u00e9norme pression, auquel devaient faire face les femmes marocaines. C&#8217;est tr\u00e8s important pour elles de pouvoir faire ce qu&#8217;elles veulent de leur vie.<\/p>\n<p>Saida, MRA a d\u00e9j\u00e0 re\u00e7u des dons du monde entier, y compris de plusieurs gouvernements. Jus Mundi et ses clients sommes tr\u00e8s heureux de pouvoir soutenir votre projet cette ann\u00e9e.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Est-ce que vous pouvez nous dire si vous avez un plan sp\u00e9cial par rapport au soutien de Jus Mundi et de ses clients?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida:<\/strong> Oui, effectivement, entre nous, ce don, c&#8217;est comme un cadeau de No\u00ebl pour nous. \u00c7a fait, je pense 2 ou 3 ans que moi et St\u00e9phanie, on parle sur un projet qu&#8217;on aimerait vraiment faire mais il n&#8217;y avait pas vraiment les moyens pour le r\u00e9aliser. C&#8217;est notre Marsadnissa, qui est un Observatoire des d\u00e9cisions de justice pour les droits humains de la femme que nous avons lanc\u00e9 \u00e7a fait plusieurs ann\u00e9es. C&#8217;est un programme qui est venu apr\u00e8s le programme de litiges strat\u00e9giques dont on avait d\u00e9j\u00e0 parl\u00e9 pour les avocats et pour plaider les normes internationales devant les tribunaux.<\/p>\n<p>Et, gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 ce travail, on avait constat\u00e9 qu&#8217;il y a beaucoup de probl\u00e8mes de partage d&#8217;informations et sur la jurisprudence. Il n&#8217;y a pas vraiment une circulation, un moyen ou un canal o\u00f9 l&#8217;information peut passer pour que tous les avocats partout au Maroc puissent \u00eatre au courant facilement de la jurisprudence qui se d\u00e9veloppe \u00e0 travers le pays sur la question des droits humains de la femme. Donc, l&#8217;id\u00e9e de ce Marsadnissa est venue de l\u00e0, un observatoire pour la collecte et la publication de diff\u00e9rentes d\u00e9cisions de justice qui touchent les droits humains de la femme et qui viennent de tout le Maroc, et qui va permettre de surveiller et de commenter la fa\u00e7on dont les diff\u00e9rents tribunaux tranchent dans les affaires des droits des femmes. \u00c7a permet aussi d&#8217;analyser les diff\u00e9rentes d\u00e9cisions qui sont rendues \u00e0 partir d&#8217;un point de vue des droits humains et d&#8217;une approche &#8230; Donc c&#8217;est un site Web ou une base de donn\u00e9es \u00e9lectroniques o\u00f9 on permet \u00e0 tous les avocats qui ont pu avoir une d\u00e9cision devant un tribunal de la partager pour que les autres avocats puissent facilement avoir acc\u00e8s, ou n&#8217;importe quel chercheur en droit ou n&#8217;importe quelle femme b\u00e9n\u00e9ficiaire qui a besoin de savoir plus sur des cas similaires \u00e0 son affaire et pourra avoir acc\u00e8s facilement \u00e0 ce site web avec des modes de recherche qui sont accessibles \u00e0 tout le monde donc aux professionnels comme au public, pour se documenter, chercher, savoir, partager, etc.<\/p>\n<p>Ce site, actuellement, atteint plus de 14 000 personnes qui le consultent. Mais pour nous, depuis que nous avons \u00e9laborer un site Web ou un observatoire similaire en Tunisie, on commence \u00e0 sentir le besoin qu&#8217;il faut mettre \u00e0 jour les plateformes de ce site Web, qu&#8217;il faut aussi apporter certaines mises \u00e0 jour au niveau des mots de recherche, au niveau des mot cl\u00e9s, etc., introduire les nouvelles lois qui ont \u00e9t\u00e9 promulgu\u00e9es depuis, etc. Donc il y a vraiment beaucoup de travail qui doit \u00eatre fait sur ce site web. Mais jusqu&#8217;\u00e0 maintenant, on n&#8217;a pas vraiment eu les moyens pour l&#8217;attaquer. L&#8217;id\u00e9e, pour nous, c&#8217;est que gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 cette donation, on va pouvoir \u00e0 le mettre \u00e0 jour et il va \u00eatre op\u00e9rationnel le plus rapidement possible.<\/p>\n<p>Donc, encore une fois, merci beaucoup parce que \u00e7a va nous permettre de faire quelque chose qui nous tient vraiment \u00e0 c\u0153ur, et pas seulement qu&#8217;un projet qui a \u00e9t\u00e9 \u00e9labor\u00e9. Mais c&#8217;est quelque chose qui nous tient vraiment \u00e0 c\u0153ur.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Merci aussi beaucoup de continuer \u00e0 d\u00e9velopper ce projet parce que, que ce soit le collaboratif, le partage d&#8217;informations, c&#8217;est aussi quelque chose qui est tr\u00e8s important pour nous et on y croit beaucoup dans la possibilit\u00e9 de r\u00e9ussir \u00e0 collecter le droit et \u00e0 le rendre plus utile. On ne pouvait pas imaginer un projet plus en ligne avec notre id\u00e9ologie \u00e0 Jus Mundi. Donc on est tr\u00e8s content.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie, comment peuvent les autres donneurs contribuer \u00e0 l&#8217;organisation s&#8217;ils le souhaitent?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> Nous acceptons volontiers, les contributions financi\u00e8res et le soutien par virement bancaire. Notre banque est mise en place\u00a0 pour recevoir des dons et des virements en devises fortes. Donc pas seulement en Dirham marocain, etc. Et puis, nous sommes \u00e9galement heureux de diriger les donateurs potentiels vers certaines des ONG partenaires locales avec lesquelles nous travaillons au niveau local \u00e0 travers le pays. S&#8217;ils sont particuli\u00e8rement int\u00e9ress\u00e9s par une r\u00e9gion ou une zone particuli\u00e8re du pays ou pour le soutien d&#8217;une petite association locale de base. Nous pouvons \u00e9galement faciliter cela.<\/p>\n<p>Je sais que pour beaucoup de nos utilisateurs et clients, le droit des femmes est tr\u00e8s important. J&#8217;esp\u00e8re donc qu&#8217;ils verront cette interview et je les incite fortement \u00e0 vous contacter directement. Nous mettrons tous les liens sous la vid\u00e9o afin qu&#8217;ils puissent \u00eatre en contact avec vous. Y a-t-il d&#8217;autres moyens pour les gens, pour les donateurs de vous aider autrement que de faire une contribution financi\u00e8re?<\/p>\n<p>Oui, l\u00e0 o\u00f9 nous avons trouv\u00e9 que les soutiens et les donateurs \u00e9taient tr\u00e8s utiles et contribuaient \u00e0 notre travail, a \u00e9t\u00e9, tout d&#8217;abord, avec un acc\u00e8s facilitant l&#8217;acc\u00e8s \u00e0 l&#8217;information ou aux ressources. Parfois, les donateurs, de par leurs emplois, leurs positions, etc. ont acc\u00e8s \u00e0 certaines informations ou \u00e0 diff\u00e9rentes ressources ou \u00e0 leurs technologies ou autres qu&#8217;il est utile de partager. L\u00e0 o\u00f9 nous les donateurs peuvent \u00eatre tr\u00e8s utiles pour notre travail de d\u00e9fense, c&#8217;est la facilitation des relations avec les d\u00e9cideurs et autres parties prenantes cl\u00e9s pour notre mobilisation. C&#8217;est aussi parce que nous travaillons beaucoup sur le terrain, avoir le soutien n\u00e9cessaire pour rencontrer ces d\u00e9cideurs de haut niveau est \u00e9galement tr\u00e8s utile. Et puis, comme l&#8217;a mentionn\u00e9 Saida concernant Marsadnissa,\u00a0 l&#8217;observatoire en ligne des d\u00e9cisions de justice locales li\u00e9es aux droits des femmes, que nous avons au Maroc, ainsi qu&#8217;un second en Tunisie, on explore actuellement les possibilit\u00e9s de faire contribuer des volontaires juridiques ayant des comp\u00e9tences en arabe faire la synth\u00e8se et l&#8217;analyse de ces d\u00e9cisions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> C&#8217;est un tr\u00e8s bon point. Nous avions plusieurs contributeurs chez Jus Mundi qui parlent arabe, et nous en avons encore quelques-uns aujourd&#8217;hui, je pense qu&#8217;il y en a trois. Nous allons \u00e9galement leur passer le message, et leur dire qu&#8217;ils pourront rentrer en contact avec vous s&#8217;ils souhaitent contribuer.<\/p>\n<p>J&#8217;ai une derni\u00e8re question, mais avant de poser cette question, je souhaite remercier Luciana et Sneha de l&#8217;\u00e9quipe de Jus Mundi qui nous ont aid\u00e9s \u00e0 pr\u00e9parer cet interview, \u00e0 travailler sur cette id\u00e9e durant les semaines pass\u00e9es, et plus g\u00e9n\u00e9ralement, l&#8217;ensemble de l&#8217;\u00e9quipe Jus Mundi qui a vot\u00e9 pour vous et nous ont donn\u00e9 l&#8217;opportunit\u00e9 d&#8217;avoir cette chance de discuter.<\/p>\n<p>Je vais poser ma derni\u00e8re question en fran\u00e7ais, mais je suppose que vous aurez toutes les deux, une r\u00e9ponse \u00e0 nous donner.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ma derni\u00e8re question est la suivante: quel est votre message \u00e0 toutes les femmes?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida:<\/strong> En toute sinc\u00e9rit\u00e9, je n&#8217;ai pas vraiment des messages pour les femmes vu que la majorit\u00e9 des messages, des programmes, des activit\u00e9s jusqu&#8217;aujourd&#8217;hui, ont \u00e9t\u00e9 adress\u00e9s \u00e0 la femme et le fardeau du changement a \u00e9t\u00e9 vraiment mis sur le dos de la femme. Mon message va plut\u00f4t \u00eatre destin\u00e9 \u00e0 tous les intervenants publics ou priv\u00e9s, \u00e0 tous les hommes.<\/p>\n<p>Si on veut vraiment des changements et surtout si on veut vraiment mettre fin aux violences contre les femmes Il nous faut des changements, mais des changements de comportements concrets de la part des hommes. S&#8217;il va y avoir des actions, ils doivent vraiment cibler les hommes, et les comportements des hommes.<\/p>\n<p>Je pense que c&#8217;est une tr\u00e8s bonne id\u00e9e. Le travail est sur les \u00e9paules de tout le monde et il ne faut pas laisser penser que c&#8217;est les femmes qui devraient s&#8217;occuper de la situation. L&#8217;\u00e9ducation des hommes est tr\u00e8s importante.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi: Stephanie, est-ce que tu veux ajouter quelque chose? <\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie<\/strong>: Je voudrais juste ajouter, pour continuer sur ce qu&#8217;a dit Saida, \u00e0 toutes les femmes, peu importe ce que vous pouvez traverser, ce n&#8217;est pas de votre faute,\u00a0 tout d&#8217;abord. Je pense que nous ne pouvons pas dire cela assez, peu importe o\u00f9 nous sommes. L&#8217;une des choses que nous avons constat\u00e9es dans notre travail sur les violences faites aux femmes, c&#8217;est que c&#8217;est que les femmes sont continuellement bl\u00e2m\u00e9es par les communaut\u00e9s, par leurs familles, bl\u00e2m\u00e9es par le syst\u00e8me judiciaire. Toute la r\u00e9ponse juridique aux violences faites aux les femmes est bas\u00e9e sur le fait de bl\u00e2mer les femmes, les femmes qui int\u00e9riorisent, qui se bl\u00e2ment. Donc, je suppose que la premi\u00e8re chose que je vais dire, c&#8217;est que ce n&#8217;est pas de votre faute.<\/p>\n<p>Et le meilleur slogan que j&#8217;ai vu sur un tote-bag lors d&#8217;une conf\u00e9rence c&#8217;\u00e9tait: Les filles, vous n&#8217;\u00eates pas moches. C&#8217;est la soci\u00e9t\u00e9 qui l&#8217;est! Donc je suppose que c&#8217;est ce que j&#8217;aurais dit, c&#8217;est mon dernier mot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jean-R\u00e9mi:<\/strong> Parfait, c&#8217;\u00e9tait un vrai plaisir d&#8217;avoir cette discussion avec vous. Merci une fois encore pour toute l&#8217;inspiration que vous avez apport\u00e9e, \u00e0 moi, \u00e0 nous mais \u00e9galement, toutes les personnes qui nous \u00e9couteront. J&#8217;esp\u00e8re que cette pand\u00e9mie prendra bient\u00f4t fin et que nous pourrons nous voir en personne, tr\u00e8s bient\u00f4t.<\/p>\n<p>Saida, St\u00e9phanie, merci beaucoup pour cette interview. Je vous dis \u00e0 tr\u00e8s bient\u00f4t.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Saida:<\/strong> Merci beaucoup \u00e0 toute l&#8217;\u00e9quipe.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Stephanie:<\/strong> Merci beaucoup, au revoir.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Happy holidays and best wishes for 2021! The team at Jus Mundi wishes you peace, joy, and prosperity throughout the coming year. To all our clients, thank you for your continued support. We couldn\u2019t have had such a successful year without you. 2020 was a difficult year. So, instead of sending gifts to our clients, [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":278526,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jnews-multi-image_gallery":[],"jnews_single_post":{"subtitle":"","format":"standard","video":"","gallery":"","source_name":"","source_url":"","via_name":"","via_url":"","override_template":"0","override":[{"template":"custom","single_blog_custom":"274736","parallax":"1","fullscreen":"1","layout":"right-sidebar","sidebar":"author","second_sidebar":"default-sidebar","sticky_sidebar":"1","share_position":"hide","share_float_style":"share-monocrhome","show_share_counter":"0","show_view_counter":"0","show_featured":"1","show_post_meta":"1","show_post_author":"0","show_post_author_image":"0","show_post_date":"1","post_date_format":"default","post_date_format_custom":"Y\/m\/d","show_post_category":"0","show_post_reading_time":"0","post_reading_time_wpm":"300","show_zoom_button":"0","zoom_button_out_step":"2","zoom_button_in_step":"3","show_post_tag":"0","show_prev_next_post":"0","show_popup_post":"0","number_popup_post":"1","show_author_box":"0","show_post_related":"0","show_inline_post_related":"0"}],"override_image_size":"0","image_override":[{"single_post_thumbnail_size":"crop-500","single_post_gallery_size":"crop-500"}],"trending_post":"0","trending_post_position":"meta","trending_post_label":"Trending","sponsored_post":"0","sponsored_post_label":"Sponsored by","sponsored_post_name":"","sponsored_post_url":"","sponsored_post_logo_enable":"0","sponsored_post_logo":"","sponsored_post_desc":"","disable_ad":"0"},"jnews_primary_category":{"id":"","hide":""},"jnews_social_meta":{"fb_title":"","fb_description":"","fb_image":"278526","twitter_title":"","twitter_description":"","twitter_image":""},"jnews_review":[],"enable_review":"0","type":"percentage","name":"","summary":"","brand":"","sku":"","good":[{"good_text":""}],"bad":[{"bad_text":""}],"score_override":"0","override_value":"","rating":[{"rating_text":"","rating_number":"10"}],"price":[{"shop":"","price":"","link":"","icon":""}],"jnews_override_counter":{"override_view_counter":"0","view_counter_number":"0","override_share_counter":"0","share_counter_number":"0","override_like_counter":"0","like_counter_number":"0","override_dislike_counter":"0","dislike_counter_number":"0"},"footnotes":""},"categories":[140],"tags":[],"coauthors":[],"class_list":["post-272216","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-in-conversation-with"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/272216","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=272216"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/272216\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":276863,"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/272216\/revisions\/276863"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/278526"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=272216"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=272216"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=272216"},{"taxonomy":"author","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/dailyjus.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/coauthors?post=272216"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}